04 Alex: Do you have a good topic for today? Bea: I found one about “moon time.” Have you heard of it? The idea can be difficult to grasp. In simple terms, the Moon does not yet have a single clock or agreed time standard. On Earth, the UK, Italy, Spain, and Canada all have local times, but there is no equivalent system for the Moon. As people develop more technology there, we will need a consistent way to coordinate equipment such as satellites. Governments are therefore discussing whether to create lunar time and what that standard should look like. Have you seen any news about it? Alex: Not yet. What exactly does “moon time” mean? Bea: It is also called lunar time. I wanted to ask how you feel about humanity making greater use of the Moon and perhaps creating a clock there. The Moon does not follow the same rhythm as Earth, so time behaves slightly differently. Alex: I understand, but this feels too specialized and scientific for me. Could we discuss a social or international-relations topic instead? Bea: Of course.
04 Alex：你今天准备了什么好话题吗？ Bea：我找了一个关于“月球时间”的话题。你听说过吗？这个概念不太容易理解。简单来说，月球目前没有统一的时钟或时间标准。地球上英国、意大利、西班牙和加拿大都有各自的当地时间，但月球没有。随着人类在月球上发展技术，我们需要一种统一方式来协调卫星等设备，因此各国政府正在讨论是否建立月球时间，以及这一标准应当如何设计。你看过相关报道吗？ Alex：还没有。“月球时间”是什么意思？ Bea：也可以叫 lunar time。我想问的是，你如何看待人类越来越多地开发月球，甚至在月球上建立时钟。月球的运行节律与地球不同，所以时间的表现也略有差异。 Alex：我明白了，不过这个话题对我来说太专业，更像科学领域。我们能谈社会话题或国际关系吗？ Bea：当然可以。
05 Bea：我的论文研究移民。如果你对此感兴趣，我在许多边境地区做过工作。我现在住在意大利北部的都灵，离法国边境很近，因此我经常在阿尔卑斯山区工作。那里有一处庇护所，人们可以住一晚。通常，他们要步行大约二十公里穿越阿尔卑斯山。旅程很危险，但对一些人来说，这是前往法国申请庇护的唯一方式。我也在法国加来一带工作过，那里有许多人乘船前往英国申请庇护。 Alex：你现在是博士生还是硕士生？ Bea：我本科时就研究这个主题，现在继续攻读同一方向的硕士。 Alex：这和我导师关注的领域非常接近。他也是移民研究专家，还建议我继续申请他的博士项目。加拿大的移民政策也很值得研究，我最近写了一篇关于加拿大华人移民的文章，从不同角度分析这个问题。
05 Bea: My dissertation focused on migration. If that interests you, I have worked in several border areas. I am currently in Turin in northern Italy, close to the French border, so I have spent a great deal of time working in the Alps. There is a refuge where people can stay for one night. They normally walk about twenty kilometres across the mountains. It is a very dangerous journey, but for some people it is the only way to reach France and seek asylum. I have also worked near Calais on the French border, where many people take boats to the UK to apply for asylum. Alex: Are you currently a PhD candidate or a master’s Alex? Bea: I began researching this topic as an undergraduate, and I am now doing a master’s degree in the same field. Alex: That is very close to my supervisor’s area. He also specializes in migration and has encouraged me to apply for a PhD with him. Canadian immigration policy is fascinating too. I recently wrote an article examining Chinese immigrants in Canada from several perspectives.
06 Alex：我很想和你分享自己的想法，因为你是住在意大利的英国人，而我是住在加拿大的中国人，我们的背景不同。如果你从意大利回英国，情况可能还不错，因为仅从 GDP 等角度看，英国可能被视为比意大利更发达。可如果我从加拿大回中国，情况就复杂得多。中国各地区发展很不平衡。回北京、上海或广州，生活条件可能比加拿大更好；回到某些乡村地区，可能就不如加拿大。政治背景也不同。有人认为中国是威权国家，人们缺乏表达自由。部分富裕的中国人，或渴望获得西方自由的人，会把加拿大视为人生的 B 计划或补充方案。但移民决定非常复杂，会同时受到文化、刻板印象、偏见和经济因素影响。
06 Alex: I would like to share my ideas with you because you are British and living in Italy, while I am Chinese and living in Canada. We come from different backgrounds. If you returned to the UK from Italy, you might feel that the situation was still acceptable because, from a measure such as GDP, the UK may be seen as more developed than Italy. If I returned to China from Canada, however, the situation would be much more varied. Development is highly uneven across China. Returning to Beijing, Shanghai, or Guangzhou might offer conditions that are better than Canada, whereas returning to some rural areas might be worse. The political background is also different. Some people regard China as an authoritarian country where people lack freedom to express their views. Some wealthy Chinese people, or people who strongly desire Western freedoms, see life in Canada as a “Plan B” or a supplementary life plan. Yet migration decisions are complicated and involve culture, stereotypes, prejudice, economics, and many other factors at the same time.
07 Alex：我最近一直在思考这个问题。我生于 1990 年，在中国长大。小时候，我认为西方国家是最民主的地方，重视人权与普世价值，因此在想象中非常美好，这也是我来到加拿大的根本原因。 Bea：也就是说，中国社会长期流传着一种叙事，把欧洲描绘成人权方面令人向往的目的地。 Alex：是的。但我现在关心的是，你在欧盟可能也看到过类似矛盾。许多人从非洲移民或偷渡到欧洲。如果西方国家仍然强调人权，为什么有时会对这些移民持相反甚至排斥的态度？
07 Alex: I have been thinking deeply about this issue. I was born in 1990 and grew up in China. During my childhood, I saw Western countries as the most democratic places in the world. I believed that they emphasized human rights and universal values, so I imagined them as wonderful places. That belief was one of the fundamental reasons I came to Canada. Bea: So, a continuing narrative in China presents Europe as a desirable destination because of its commitment to human rights. Alex: Yes. My concern now is that you may have encountered the same contradiction in the European Union. Many people migrate, or are smuggled, from Africa into Europe. If Western countries continue to emphasize the value of human rights, why do they sometimes adopt an opposing or even hostile attitude toward these migrants? I want to understand how those declared values can coexist with the way migrants are treated in practice.
08 Bea：这种叙事确实存在。我现在也算移民，因为我住在意大利，但我是主动选择来到这里，而且获得了合法许可。我不是为了逃离危险，只是想学习，政府便认为没有问题。可如果我真的需要一个安全的地方，反而可能不被允许进入。这里存在一种鲜明对比：政府会判断某个人是否可能为经济作贡献、能带来多少钱，而不是首先把对方当作一个人，思考是否有空间、是否能够提供帮助。欧洲在移民问题上常常根据国籍区别对待。我为什么应该比逃离战争的人得到完全不同的待遇？他们理应获得更好的对待。所谓“没有空间、没有资源”的说法并不成立，因为英国、意大利和法国一直都有空间接收留学生，也欢迎人们来工作、赚钱和生活。
08 Bea: That narrative certainly exists. I am also an immigrant now because I live in Italy, but I chose to be here and I have permission to stay. I have not fled from danger; I simply wanted to study, and the authorities said that was acceptable. Yet if I genuinely needed a safe place, I might not be allowed to enter. There is a sharp contrast between people who are expected to contribute to the economy and those who are not. Governments often ask how much a person can add to the economy or how much money they might bring, rather than first seeing a human being and asking whether there is space or whether help can be provided. In Europe, people of different nationalities are treated very differently in immigration matters. Why should I receive better treatment than someone fleeing a war? They deserve much better treatment. The claim that there is no space or no capacity is unconvincing because England, Italy, and France continually make room for international Alexs and welcome people who come to work, earn money, and live.
09 Bea：英国尤其不断重复这种矛盾的叙事。就在上周，多佛发生了抗议。许多身穿黑衣的人堵住道路，车辆无法通行，造成严重延误和公共秩序问题。这些抗议者是为了阻止移民，但警方没有逮捕他们，只说现场很平静，没有问题。相反，当人们抗议政府为何不保障移民人权时，却会突然出现逮捕、上铐，甚至警察暴力。我认为这种反差已经说明了很多问题。 Alex：是的。尤其在疫情之后，许多中国人离开中国，加拿大只是其中一个目的地。可是近几年政策变化很快，有些人又回到中国，因为他们觉得加拿大不再欢迎移民。来自印度、中国、越南和菲律宾的人都有类似感受：加拿大需要他们时就接纳他们，不需要时就把他们排斥在外。
09 Bea: This contradictory narrative is repeated constantly, especially in the UK. Just last week, there was a protest in Dover. Many people dressed in black blocked the roads so that cars could not pass, causing major delays and public disruption. The protest was intended to stop migrants, yet the police did not arrest the protesters. They said the situation was calm and that nothing was wrong. By contrast, when people protest to ask why migrants are not being granted basic human rights, arrests can follow; people may be put in chains, and police brutality becomes an issue. I think that contrast says a great deal. Alex: Yes. Particularly after the pandemic, many Chinese people left China, with Canada being just one destination. In recent years, however, policies have changed quickly. Some people have returned to China because they feel that Canada no longer welcomes immigrants. People from India, China, Vietnam, and the Philippines may share the same impression: when Canada needs them, it embraces them, but when it no longer needs them, it pushes them away.
10 Alex：于是，人们会觉得加拿大强调的平等和人权是虚假的。一旦根本利益发生冲突，态度就会改变。政治人物不只依据普世价值行事，也会回应选民诉求。如果公众认为移民抢占工作机会，或损害国家和社会的安全与稳定，他们就会产生强烈的负面态度。经济繁荣时，发达国家可以站在道德高位欢迎移民；但实际来到加拿大的人可能远行一万公里，最后只能在餐馆、运输或外卖行业工作。他们很难进入政府岗位，也会受到许多资格限制。以电工为例，往往需要取得所谓的红印证书；有些培训或执业路径还要求公民或永久居民身份，并需要多年才能进入行业。社会工作岗位也存在身份和注册门槛，而政府系统内某些职位的工资可能明显高于普通社会工作岗位。
10 Alex: As a result, people may conclude that Canada’s stated commitment to equality and human rights is false. Once fundamental interests come into conflict, the attitude changes. Politicians do not act only on universal values; they also respond to voters’ demands. If the public believes that immigrants are taking jobs or harming the safety and stability of the country and society, it may adopt a strongly negative view. When the economy is prosperous, a developed country can speak from a moral high ground and welcome immigrants. In practice, however, someone may travel ten thousand kilometres to Canada only to work in a restaurant, transportation, or food delivery. It can be difficult for immigrants to obtain government positions, and many occupations have qualification barriers. Electricians, for example, may need a Red Seal certification, while some training or licensing routes require citizenship or permanent residence and take years to complete. Social-work roles can also have status and registration requirements, and some positions within government systems may pay substantially more than ordinary social-work jobs.
11 Alex：你可能也注意到有关加拿大印度留学生毕业后上街抗议移民政策的新闻。他们的意思是：“你们需要我们时欢迎我们，不需要时就把我们赶出加拿大。”他们为毕业后工作许可，也就是 PGWP 而抗争。后来，加拿大边境服务局逮捕并遣返了一些学生，人权组织又站出来批评这种做法粗暴。这就像一场敲锣打鼓的舞台表演。日本或中国有时会直接说不欢迎移民、不允许进入，但西方国家却高举许多口号。我常用“挥舞旗帜”来形容：旗帜上写着人权和普世价值，真正关心的却是自身利益。也许西方的普世价值无法自圆其说，国家反而应该采取更务实、直接的态度，例如明确说“美国优先”“英国优先”“中国优先”或“日本优先”，承认人都有差异，也都有自利的一面。 Bea：你的意思是言行不一，或者说“两面派”。 Alex：对。
11 Alex: You may also have seen reports about Indian international students in Canada protesting immigration policies after graduation. Their message was: “You welcomed us when you needed us, but now that you do not, you are pushing us out of Canada.” They were fighting for post-graduation work permits, or PGWPs. Later, the Canada Border Services Agency arrested and deported some students, and human-rights organizations criticized the response as harsh. To me, it resembles a performance with drums on a stage. Countries such as Japan or China may sometimes state directly that they do not welcome immigrants or will not allow them to enter, whereas Western countries display many slogans. I often describe this as “waving flags”: the flags say human rights and universal values, but the real concern is national self-interest. Perhaps Western universal values cannot sustain their own claims, and countries should adopt a more pragmatic and direct position—“America first,” “the UK first,” “China first,” or “Japan first”—instead of performing empty gestures. Human beings differ, but we all have selfish tendencies. Bea: You mean that someone is two-faced: their words and actions do not match. Alex: Exactly.
12 Bea：我认为英国在这方面的问题很严重，尤其是现在由工党执政。工党被视为左翼、支持人权，可人们每周都在越境途中死亡，这些问题却几乎无人谈论，仿佛根本没有发生。只要开车两小时，就能亲眼看到。政府从右翼转向左翼后，我和许多研究移民的朋友都以为情况会改善。然而几个月过去了，首相几乎没有就此表态。仅仅因为投票选出了左翼政府，就以为国内人权会自动改善，这其实是一种表象，现实并不是这样。许多左翼选民还认为工人阶级会得到更多支持，但目前英国工人阶级与移民之间存在强烈的仇恨和愤怒。
12 Bea: I think the UK is particularly bad in this respect, especially now that we have a Labour government. Labour is seen as left-wing and supportive of human rights. Yet people are dying while crossing the border every week, and almost no one discusses it; the problem is treated as if it were not happening. If you drive for two hours, however, you can see the reality. When the government shifted from the right to the left, many people—especially my friends who study migration—assumed that the situation would improve. In fact, months have passed and the prime minister has hardly said anything about it. It is a façade to believe that simply voting for someone on the left will automatically improve human rights in the country. Politics does not work that way. Many people who vote for the left also assume that the working class will receive more support, yet there is currently a great deal of hostility and anger between the working class and immigrants, particularly in the UK.
13 Bea：去年我在一家帮助无家可归者的慈善机构全职工作，而移民研究一直是我最关心的领域。我接触到很多无家可归、难以在社会中找到工作的人。关于移民问题，我几乎无法让任何人认同我的观点，因为工人阶级与移民之间已经形成很深的敌意。我认为这种敌意在一定程度上是英国政府制造并推动的，尽管两类人面对的根本问题其实非常相似。我原本希望左翼政府上台会改善英国移民处境，现在却觉得情况未必会改变。意大利目前更像特朗普式政治，梅洛尼会直接表达自己的信念。我不同意她的观点，但她说得很明确，也公开支持特朗普。相比之下，英国的基尔·斯塔默经常说自己是左翼，却没有用行动证明立场，没人真正知道他相信什么，这种挫败感正在累积。
13 Bea: Last year, I worked full-time for a homelessness charity, while migration remained the subject I cared about most. I met many people who were homeless and struggling to find work and participate in society. Immigration was the one issue on which I could not persuade anyone to agree with me, because there is so much hostility and anger between the working class and immigrants. I believe the UK government has partly created and encouraged that division, even though the underlying problems facing both groups are actually very similar. I had hoped that a left-wing government would improve conditions for immigrants in the UK, but I now doubt that much will change. Italy currently resembles Trump-style politics more closely. Giorgia Meloni states her beliefs directly. I disagree with what she says, but she is clear about it and openly supports Trump. By contrast, no one really knows where Keir Starmer stands. He frequently presents himself as left-wing but does little to demonstrate it through action, and that frustration is growing.
14 Bea：那么，作为持中国国籍、后来移居加拿大的人，你觉得整个行政流程怎么样？你如何看待其中的官僚主义？ Alex：这是一个非常重要而且很有意义的问题。过去两年里，我一直在观察和思考这种情况。请稍等一下，我在找一张表格，因为移民经常要使用这些材料。 Bea：没关系。 Alex：我可以举两个例子。第一个与加拿大移民、难民及公民部，也就是 IRCC 有关。我的一项移民事务持续了大约六到八个月。三个月后，他们寄来一张表让我填写，我按照说明填好并寄回。又过了三个月，他们寄来内容相同、只是格式略有变化的另一张表，我再次填写并提交。再过三个月，他们又寄来最初那张表，要求我重新填写。八个月后，我们几乎回到了起点，重复处理相同的表格和内容。
14 Bea: How did you find the process of becoming a resident of Canada while retaining Chinese citizenship? What was your experience of bureaucracy when moving from China to Canada? Alex: That is a very important and meaningful question. I have observed and thought about the situation closely over the past two years. Alex: I can give you two examples. The first involves Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC. One immigration matter continued for roughly six to eight months. After three months, the department sent me a form to complete. I filled it in according to the instructions and mailed it back. Three months later, it sent another form with the same content but a slightly different format, so I completed and submitted it again. After another three months, it sent the original form and asked me to fill it out once more. By the end of eight months, we had essentially returned to the starting point and repeated the same form and information.
15 Alex：第二个例子来自中国。如果你遇到供电、能源、学校教育或政府部门服务方面的问题，可以拨打 12345。这个号码很好记，通常半天之内、最迟一天左右，就会收到相关部门的回应。当地有一个集中受理中心，工作人员未必属于被投诉的政府部门，但他们有权立即把投诉、问题或诉求转交给对应单位。各地的 12345 中心还有一套重要的考核体系，用来评价政府部门的处理表现。不过，我关心的不只是效率，因为效率有时也与腐败或威权式管理相关。 Bea：所以，效率本身也可以成为一种政治工具。 Alex：对。但与加拿大相比，在中国很难想象同一件事拖八个月，只是一遍又一遍地填表。我们也可以看日本：申请旅游签证大约十天就能得到结果。中国公民申请加拿大旅游签证却可能要三到六个月，而英国公民甚至不需要签证。这种差异让我很难理解。
15 Alex: My second example comes from China. If you have a problem involving electricity, energy, school education, or service from a government office, you can call 12345. The number is easy to remember, and you will usually receive a response from the relevant department within half a day, or at most about one day. There is a central response centre whose employees may not belong to the government office being criticized, but they have the authority to transfer a complaint, question, or problem immediately to the responsible department. These centres also have an important evaluation system for measuring how government departments perform. My concern is not only efficiency, however, because efficiency can sometimes be connected with corruption or authoritarian administration. Bea: So efficiency can itself be a political tool. Alex: Yes. Still, compared with Canada, it is difficult to imagine allowing the same matter to continue for eight months while repeatedly completing forms. Consider Japan as another example: a tourist visa can be issued in about ten days. A Chinese citizen applying for a Canadian visitor visa may wait three to six months, while a British citizen does not need one. I find that difference difficult to understand.
16 Alex：甚至 IRCC 的普通员工也会抱怨自己的工资低于美国同行，想离职，或向联邦政府表达不满。我最近申请了加拿大的缓刑监督官职位。根据我看到的信息，这个岗位一年里包括周末和假期在内大约有 150 天不用上班，年薪约 6 万加元，是一份相当舒适的工作。我很难想象日本或中国会有完全一样的安排，也不知道英国是否如此。 Bea：英国肯定不是这样。 Alex：所以，只要进入政府部门工作，生活可能就会完全不同。这种情况甚至也会发生在民主国家。中国虽然常被称为威权国家，但如果你去政府部门办事，遇到这种拖延或态度，几乎肯定会向上级投诉。在加拿大，工作人员通常很礼貌、态度很好，可服务结果未必高效。
16 Alex: Even ordinary IRCC employees reportedly complain that their salaries are lower than those of their American counterparts. They may want to leave their jobs or raise complaints with the federal government. I recently applied for a probation-officer position in Canada. Based on the information I saw, the job includes roughly 150 non-working days each year when weekends and holidays are counted, and the annual salary is about 60,000 Canadian dollars. It appears to be a very comfortable job. I cannot imagine exactly the same arrangement in Japan or China, and I do not know whether it would happen in the UK. Bea: Definitely not in the UK. Alex: Securing a government position can therefore mean living a completely different kind of life. This can happen even in a democratic country. China is often described as authoritarian, but if a government office handled a matter with this degree of delay or a poor attitude, a person would almost certainly complain to a higher authority. In Canada, staff are generally very polite and pleasant, yet the service outcome may still be inefficient.
17 Alex：医院也是一个例子。在中国去综合医院，可能等十五到二十分钟，至少半小时左右就能看医生。加拿大的综合医院同样设有门诊和药房，可如果直接去急诊，通常要等八到十小时才能见到医生。我还补过六颗蛀牙，总费用是 3,000 加元；在中国可能只需约 300 元人民币，也就是大约 60 加元。 Bea：哇，确实便宜很多。 Alex：因此我得出一个结论：这是一种“制度性腐败”。我的意思不是每个人都收受贿赂，而是整个制度让牙医、医生或政府系统内的社会工作者可以合法获得很高的收入。个人行为可能完全合法，但结构本身仍会造成不公平。这也回到了你所说的官僚主义：没有哪位公务员明显腐败，可体系运转的结果依然有问题。
17 Alex: Hospitals provide another example. In China, a person may wait fifteen or twenty minutes at a general hospital and usually see a doctor within about half an hour. A Canadian general hospital may also contain clinics and a pharmacy, but if you walk into the emergency department, you may wait eight to ten hours before seeing a doctor. I also had six cavities filled, and the total cost was 3,000 Canadian dollars. In China, the same treatment might cost about 300 yuan, or roughly 60 Canadian dollars. Bea: Wow, that is much cheaper. Alex: I therefore reached the conclusion that this is a form of “systemic corruption.” I do not mean that every individual accepts bribes. I mean that the structure allows dentists, doctors, or social workers in government systems to earn very high incomes legally. Each person may act entirely within the law, yet the system can still produce unfair outcomes. This returns to your question about bureaucracy: no individual civil servant may appear corrupt, but the way the system operates can remain deeply problematic.
18 Alex：几年以后，人们如果对执政党不满意，可以投票换另一个党，例如从自由党换成保守党。但政府里的公务员仍然是同一批人，继续留在原来的岗位，所以我所说的制度性问题可能照旧存在。你也许会反问：既然我说中国有这么多优点，为什么还要来加拿大？ Bea：每个国家都有优点和问题，不可能简单判断哪个国家最适合生活。某些地方在特定方面确实更好，但每个人都不一样，需求也不同，因此无法给所有人一个统一答案。如果不停追逐所谓最好的国家，可能走遍世界也找不到，因为任何地方都有不足。不过我想知道，在中国，如果一个不会说普通话的外国移民在医院遇到问题，或者拨打公共服务热线，他们会遇到什么困难？有关部门会怎样处理，又是否有能力解决？
18 Alex: After several years, people who are dissatisfied with the governing party may vote for another one, perhaps replacing the Liberals with the Conservatives. Yet the civil servants remain the same people in the same positions, so the systemic problems I described may continue unchanged. You might ask: if I can identify so many advantages in China, why did I come to Canada? Bea: Every country has strengths as well as problems. It is impossible to decide, in a simple way, which country is the best place to live. Certain places are better in particular respects, but every individual is different and our needs vary, so there cannot be one answer for everyone. If you keep chasing the ideal country, you may travel around the world and never find it, because every place has negative aspects. I am curious, though: in China, what would happen if an immigrant who could not speak Mandarin had a problem at a hospital or called a public service line? What difficulties would that person encounter, how would the authorities respond, and would they be able to resolve the issue?
19 Alex：中国社会存在明显的层级划分。如果一个人不在“体制内”工作——这里的体制内包括警察、医生、Bea和公务员等——工资往往会低很多。加拿大其实也有类似现象，但在中国，体制内工资可能是体制外的三到四倍。两国的区别在于，中国体制内人员受到非常严格的纪律和行为约束。可以把这种关系理解为执政党在说：“我给你稳定的待遇，你就必须服从命令。” Bea：这几乎像一种以待遇换忠诚的安排。 Alex：对，就是“我给你这些，你必须跟随我、服从我”。但在加拿大，很多人在类似体系中也拿高薪，我却还没有弄清楚他们究竟忠于谁。 Bea：可能是省长或市长？ Alex：从你的角度看，什么制度能保证医生、Bea、牙医等群体获得高薪？背后的原因是什么？
19 Alex: Chinese society contains clear levels of status. If a person does not work “within the system”—meaning occupations such as police officers, doctors, teachers, and civil servants—their salary may be much lower. Canada has something similar, but in China, pay within the system can be three or four times higher than pay outside it. The difference between China and Canada is that people inside the Chinese system are subject to very strict discipline and behavioural constraints. The relationship can be understood as the governing party saying, “I give you stable benefits, so you must obey my instructions.” Bea: It sounds almost like an arrangement in which benefits are exchanged for loyalty. Alex: Exactly: “I give you these things, and you must follow me and obey my orders.” In Canada, however, many people in comparable systems also receive high salaries, and I have not yet understood to whom they are loyal. Bea: Perhaps the provincial premier or the mayor? Alex: From your perspective, what kind of system ensures that doctors, teachers, dentists, and similar professionals receive high salaries? What is the reason behind it?
20 Bea：我认为这取决于政府重视什么。英国政府给教师的工资很低，我不觉得政府真正重视教育，至少教育不是优先事项。警察的收入也不算高。我甚至认为，这在一定程度上是因为政府不希望警队受教育程度太高，而更希望警员服从命令。通常，人们不需要很多学历，也不一定需要大学学位，完成基础教育后就可以直接进入警校。政府并不希望他们拥有太多其他技能。薪酬更像培训体系的一部分，警员进入后再逐级晋升，而不是从其他行业横向进入。军队则可能是另一项政府优先事项。如果一个人处境脆弱、需要收入又无处可去，军队可以提供住处、食物和不错的工资，使其获得安全感。所以，职业收入在很大程度上反映政府把优先资源放在哪里。
20 Bea: I think it depends on what a government values. The UK government pays teachers poorly, and I do not believe it places a high value on education; at least, education does not appear to be a priority. The police are not paid especially well either. I sometimes think this is partly because the government does not want a highly educated police force; it wants officers who will obey instructions. People generally do not need many qualifications or even a university degree. They can finish their basic education and go directly to police training. The system does not encourage them to develop many other skills. Their pay is more like part of a training structure, and they work their way up after joining rather than moving laterally into policing from another profession. The armed forces may represent a different government priority. If someone is vulnerable, needs money, and has nowhere else to go, the military can provide accommodation, food, a reasonable salary, and a sense of security. Professional salaries therefore reveal where governments choose to place their resources and priorities.
21 Bea：也许中国重视的是信任和透明度。政府如果为这些岗位提供高薪，可能会吸引愿意遵守规则、保持诚实的人，因为他们不想失去优厚待遇。美国在这个讨论中也很有意思。虽然并不是任何人都能成功，但对收入上升的限制似乎较少，人们可以不断向上攀登。因此才会出现埃隆·马斯克这类亿万富翁，拥有巨大的行动空间。这在其他国家并不常见，因为那些政府对工资和资金分配的控制更强。 Alex：也可以说，这些人因为直接服务于国家或政府，所以得到高薪。保姆对政府的直接贡献可能较少，而军人、医生或警察则直接服务于国家机器。可如果民众不满意这种状况，在西方国家能做什么？我发现人们有时会争论或抗议，但最后事情仍然不会改变。
21 Bea: Perhaps China places a priority on trust and transparency. If the government pays high salaries for these roles, it may attract people who are willing to follow the rules and remain honest because they do not want to lose generous benefits. The United States is also fascinating in this discussion. Although not everyone can succeed, there seem to be fewer limits on how far a person’s income can rise, so people can continue climbing the ladder. That helps explain the presence of billionaires such as Elon Musk, who have enormous freedom to act. You do not see the same phenomenon to the same extent in many other countries because their governments exercise greater control over wages and the distribution of money. Alex: Another explanation is that these professionals are paid highly because they serve the state or government directly. A housekeeper may contribute less directly to government functions, whereas a soldier, doctor, or police officer serves the state apparatus. But if people are dissatisfied with this arrangement, what can they do in a Western country? I sometimes see people argue or protest, yet ultimately nothing appears to change.
22 Bea：这确实很难，也取决于政府重视什么。个人需要看看自己的职业在哪里最受重视。例如，如果想当Bea，我听说迪拜的待遇很好，而英国并非如此，所以可能要去最重视这个职业的地方。伦敦某些政府相关岗位的工资也很高，但前提是愿意投入大量时间、不断晋升。日本也类似，人们工作时间极长，拼命往上爬。伦敦地铁里经常能看到穿西装的人累得睡着，这不应该成为常态，但可能反映年轻人努力进入政府或高级职业体系的状态。社交也非常重要：一起喝酒、持续交流、与政府相关人士保持联系和人脉，在英国尤其关键，日本可能也是如此。我不确定中国的情况，但猜想有相似之处。 Alex：我认识不少在中国各级政府工作的朋友和以前的学生，因为我在中国是一名Bea。
22 Bea: It is difficult, and again it depends on what a government values. Individuals may need to consider where their profession is most appreciated. If you want to be a teacher, for example, I have heard that Dubai offers good pay, whereas the UK does not. You may therefore have to go where your profession is valued. Some government-related jobs in London also pay very well, but only if you are willing to invest the effort and keep climbing the ladder. Japan can be similar: people work extraordinary hours and push themselves hard to advance. In London, it is common to see people in suits asleep on the Underground. That should not be normal, but it may reflect young people trying to enter government or other elite professional systems. The social side also matters greatly: socializing, drinking, communicating constantly, and maintaining contacts with people involved in government can become essential, especially in the UK and perhaps in Japan. I am not certain about China, but I assume it is similar. Alex: I know many friends and former students who work at different levels of government in China because I was a teacher there.
23 Bea：我还认为，追求政府职位时，人必须非常个人主义，只考虑自己，而不能过多思考工作的整体意义，因为你往往是在牺牲自己、执行别人交代的事情。 Alex：这要看具体情况。中央政府在不同时期和不同地区呈现出不同特征。你也许知道中国前国家主席和；我认为他们执政时期比现在更开放。一个政府的领导风格会塑造整个体系的性格。若要描述当前政府，我觉得很多人像演员一样：表面上说“我服从命令”，内心却知道事情的真实情况。 Bea：我明白。 Alex：这种表演性不仅存在于个人，也会出现在机构和公共事件中。人们完成被分配的任务，但未必真正投入任务背后的公共目标。
23 Bea: I also think that pursuing a government career can require a person to be highly individualistic and focused on personal advancement. You cannot always think too deeply about the wider purpose of the job because you may be sacrificing yourself to carry out what someone else tells you to do. Alex: It depends greatly on the circumstances. China’s central government has displayed different characteristics in different periods and places. You may know the former presidents J and H. In my view, their periods in office were more open than the current one. A government’s leadership style shapes the character of the entire system. If I were asked to describe the present government, I would say that many people behave like actors. Outwardly, they say, “I obey your orders,” while inwardly they know the reality of the situation. Bea: I understand. Alex: This performative quality can appear not only in individuals but also in institutions and public events. People complete the task assigned to them without necessarily committing to the public purpose behind it.
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